ATP Tour

[Celestial]

Ne mogu Cetalji podnijeti da Nolo nije ni u najslabijoj konkurenciji ikada igrac broj 1.

[bodi123]

https://www.itia.tennis/news/sanctions/ ... ping-case/

Vidi čuda, evo još jednog talijana koji je imao identičan problem sa clostebolom ko Sinner a nije poznat i nije prvi na svijetu, a oslobođen optužbi i također prošao bez ikakve suspenzije.

Ali hajde, lakše je zapaliti cigaru i smišljati teorije zavjere, kako je onaj ili ovaj suspendovan a Jannik nije, gdje je tu jednaka pravda prema svima

[GoatNo1]

https://www.itia.tennis/news/sanctions/ ... ping-case/

Vidi čuda, evo još jednog talijana koji je imao identičan problem sa clostebolom ko Sinner a nije poznat i nije prvi na svijetu, a oslobođen optužbi i također prošao bez ikakve suspenzije.

Ali hajde, lakše je zapaliti cigaru i smišljati teorije zavjere, kako je onaj ili ovaj suspendovan a Jannik nije, gdje je tu jednaka pravda prema svima

evo ti jos veceg cuda!!!

NN igrac, najboljeg rankinga 760. pao zbog identicne substance. branio se na identican nacin, fizio masazom umazao steroid u kozu.... i suspendovan na 4 godine!

https://www.itia.tennis/news/sanctions/ ... programme/

https://www.itia.tennis/media/vsjjwsrk/ ... dacted.pdf

"The athlete therefore argues that the presence of Clostebol into his body occurred accidentally, without his knowledge and without any doping purpose."

"Player asserts that had he been able to have access to the physiotherapist subsequent to the administration of the massage, he likely would have been able to confirm his narrative and establish that the massage was the **** of the Prohibited Substance in his body"

[bodi123]

Kralju razlika je u tome što je ovaj prvi uspio dokazati lokaciju i vrijeme incidenta, kao što je i Sinner i zbog toga su oslobođeni, a taj što je banovan nije ništa dokazao bez obzira čime se branio.

Toliko teško za shvatiti?

1. slučaj(oslobođeni:

On 5 February 2024, Bortolotti accepted that clostebol was present in their sample, and therefore admitted to the ADRVs, but provided an explanation. The player asserted that they did not intend to cheat and did not knowingly ingest clostebol, providing evidence of involuntary contamination. As part of the investigation, the ITIA sought scientific advice from the WADA-accredited laboratory in Montreal, Canada, where the sample was analysed, for expert views on the plausibility of the player’s explanation.

The laboratory performed calculations based on Bortolotti’s exposure to the clostebol and the concentration detected in their sample and confirmed, based on scientific literature, that the player’s explanation was credible.

2. slučaj(banovani)

The independent tribunal determined that Battaglino did not prove the **** of the clostebol and therefore found that the anti-doping rule violations were intentional.

[forgempp]

Bravo Bodi, samo fakti i istina.

[jestamaji]

jesi li pozitivan … dvije godine i vozdra
nisi pazio, ko te je.be kad si glup

to je jedini način

[CAGarfia]

Bio kriv ili ne, bio svjestan unosa steroida ili ne, u periodu od 5 mjeseci koliko je čitav proces trajao Jannik Sinner nedvojbeno NIJE SMIO IGRATI TENIS. I to je u cijeloj priči najviše zabrinjavajuće. Kako je moguće da igrač pod istragom, koja je usput prikrivena, slobodno nastupa na Touru? Po svemu što smo vidjeli dosad, to je apsolutno nečuveno.

I recimo da je službeno priopćenje točno, da je količina nedozvoljene supstance smiješna i da Sinner nije imao pojma da mu je fizio preko kreme i rane na prstu to prenio, recimo da je sve to točno. U tom slučaju se od trenutka presude Jannik vraća na teren, nema problema, ali od pozitivnog testa do presude MORAO JE BITI SUSPENDIRAN.

Vragolasti tenis objasnio sve u srž.

[BosniaBoston]

Čilić je od 1. maja 2013. kad je pronadjen pozitivan uzorak do datuma kad je izrečena suspenzija 16.9.2013. odigrao 6 turnira, skoro jednako kao i Sinner od IW do danas

[Mogli]

Bosnjo i Bodisa su me razocarali. Brane prevaranta samo jer im je drag.

[GoatNo1]

Kralju razlika je u tome što je ovaj prvi uspio dokazati lokaciju i vrijeme incidenta, kao što je i Sinner i zbog toga su oslobođeni, a taj što je banovan nije ništa dokazao bez obzira čime se branio.

Toliko teško za shvatiti?

1. slučaj(oslobođeni:

On 5 February 2024, Bortolotti accepted that clostebol was present in their sample, and therefore admitted to the ADRVs, but provided an explanation. The player asserted that they did not intend to cheat and did not knowingly ingest clostebol, providing evidence of involuntary contamination. As part of the investigation, the ITIA sought scientific advice from the WADA-accredited laboratory in Montreal, Canada, where the sample was analysed, for expert views on the plausibility of the player’s explanation.

The laboratory performed calculations based on Bortolotti’s exposure to the clostebol and the concentration detected in their sample and confirmed, based on scientific literature, that the player’s explanation was credible.

2. slučaj(banovani)

The independent tribunal determined that Battaglino did not prove the **** of the clostebol and therefore found that the anti-doping rule violations were intentional.

Al se svi pravimo naivni. Pa ako hoće da ga puste, a hoće, naravno da ce napisati da je vjerodostojan i da je dokazao. I nole je imao valjanu vizu i izuzece pa je protjeran jer su tako htjeli. Koje gluposti citat za nepovjerovati.

[GoatNo1]

ukratko, steroid razvijen u istocnoj i zapadoj njemackoj da se pomogne sportistima. ima svojstva pogodna za to (puno pomaze bez nekih biefekata a tesko za otkriti, brzo izlazi iz tijela itd). veliki problem posljednje decenije u italiji. velika vecina pozitivnih se brani na identican nacin. unoseno preko druge osobe i kreme. na kremi je jasna oznaka da je to doping. broj sportista je jako veliki i pitanje je sao koliko ce WADA ozbiljno da shvati to jer problem postoji. gdje se sistematski pozitivne osobe brane na isti nacin. problem je samo hoce li se to dozvoliti ili ne.

https://honestsport.substack.com/p/ital ... sis-across



izmedju 2019 i 2023 38 italijanskih sportista je testirano pozitivno. znaci otprilike 10 godisnje. skoro po jedan mjesecno. i onda pored ocigledne oznake za doping i necega sto nije pojedinacan slucaj, nego rasiren i opste poznat u sportskim krugovima, postavlja se pitanje kako je moguce da se tako olako rukuje tom kremom. i da se tako lako opravda unos?

expozija slucajeva bas u posljednjoj deceniji na ovu supstancu je povezana s tim da su razvijene bolje metode otkrivanja i testovi su osjetljiviji na nju.

Italy has quite clearly been in the midst of a clostebol crisis, of some form or another, for much of the past decade. A decade in which clostebol detection methods have become more sensitive.


For example, in perhaps the most famous clostebol case, the Norwegian Olympic skier Theresa Yohaug claimed to have tested positive for the steroid after applying Trofodermin cream to treat her sunburn while training in Italy. Yohaug acknowledged she had seen the packaging, but an independent tribunal still accepted she had missed the red warning sign on the box. She was allowed to return for the Beijing Olympics in 2022 and win three gold medals. At those same Olympics the Spanish skater Laura Barquero tested positive for clostebol. To no surprise Barquero is based in Italy.

najpoznatiji slucaj je eto ova norveska skijasica. branila se isto kremom koju je koristila da lijeci opekline od sunca. kao vidjela je pakovanje ali nije vidjela crveni znak upozorenja na kutiji. i to je proslo. dozvolili su joj da ide na olimpijadu gdje je osvojila 3 zlata. i sada ce neko reci... eto dokazala je da je nevina!

[MilanMladenovic]

Bio kriv ili ne, bio svjestan unosa steroida ili ne, u periodu od 5 mjeseci koliko je čitav proces trajao Jannik Sinner nedvojbeno NIJE SMIO IGRATI TENIS. I to je u cijeloj priči najviše zabrinjavajuće. Kako je moguće da igrač pod istragom, koja je usput prikrivena, slobodno nastupa na Touru? Po svemu što smo vidjeli dosad, to je apsolutno nečuveno.

I recimo da je službeno priopćenje točno, da je količina nedozvoljene supstance smiješna i da Sinner nije imao pojma da mu je fizio preko kreme i rane na prstu to prenio, recimo da je sve to točno. U tom slučaju se od trenutka presude Jannik vraća na teren, nema problema, ali od pozitivnog testa do presude MORAO JE BITI SUSPENDIRAN.

Vragolasti tenis objasnio sve u srž.

Ali evo da se na kraju dokaze da se nije dopingovao i da jest sve tacno sto je rekao i da je zvanicna presuda da nije uzimao dope, ko ce mu nadoknaditi tu "nepravednu" suspenziju. Nije kriv dok se ne dokaze suprotno, stoga mislim da je okej sto je nastavio igrati.

[GoatNo1]

sinerov fizio je prije radio za kosarkaski klub bolonja bas u vrijeme najveceg skandala tog kluba. zvjezda kluba je bila pozitivna na istu supstancu kao i siner. branila se kako je njegova cura porezala prst i koristila sprej i poslije njemu prenijela. cudna koincidencija. i jos cudnije da ovaj ipak nije znao da krema moze da prenese supstancu preko porezanog prsta.

[GoatNo1]

ovaj dio najbolje objasnjava kako se krema koristi i zasto:

“I suspect that they use creams. Because creams as clostebol, or testosterone by cream or by gel. The detection window it's very, very short. It's sometimes some hours, then it's a good way to dope. With a lower risk to be tested, positive,” Horta told Honest Sport.

Clostebol creams are less potent than testosterone gels, so the performance-enhancing effect is more debatable. However, athletes often inject a stronger anabolic steroid, and then ‘top themselves up’ with weaker creams as competition, and more drug testing, approaches.

“It's like with a bathtub. The shot fills the tub. The cream keeps replenishing it every day to top it off,” a sports medicine doctor once said about testosterone creams.

...

krema ima jako mali i kratak "prozor" u kojem moze da se detektuje. samo par sati. to je cini odlicnim dopingom sa veoma malim rizikom da testiras pozitivno.

istina je i da je tako unesena kolicina daleko manja od upotrebe tableta ili unosa inekcijama pa i efekat nije isti ALI i to se objasnjava u tekstu.

obicno dopingovani sportisti koriste doping u vrijeme kada nema puno takmicenja i kontrola a onda kada se priblize takmicenja i cesca testiranja koriste kreme kako bi odrzavali neki nivo aktivne supstance i njen efekat na tijelo. tako postizu da je efekat duzi i bolji a da je jako tesko otkriti a i ako se otkrije nivoi budu niski!

postavlja se i pitanje, ako je vec prozor tako kratak, kako je moguce da 2 puta bude pozitivan?!?

[CAGarfia]

Imaju li negdje ti doping testovi postavljeni da se vidi nanogram ili je rekla-kazala?

[jestamaji]

sve sami šuplji izgovori …dvije godine i vozdra pa slijedeći puta dobro razmisli čime se mackaš

[CAGarfia]

sve sami šuplji izgovori …dvije godine i vozdra pa slijedeći puta dobro razmisli čime se mackaš

Ma zaštićeni su ovi najjači ko polarni medvjedi. Džumhur bi fasovao kaznu i još bi se cijela naša javnost smijala da mu je priča ovo sa fizioterapeutom i kremom, nebitno tačna ili ne bila.

[CAGarfia]

I'm a physician and here's my take re: Sinner.
ATP
My first post (a thoughtful and factual post) was deleted without justification despite dozens of click/rage-baity posts that remain up. Reeks of censorship, I got only positive and grateful comments, asked the mods for reasoning and got nothing, way to go guys! So here I go again. [EDIT: they responded it was likely a mistake, and that makes sense given that the sub was a cesspool today.]

I’m an anesthesiologist, I understand drugs, metabolites, half-lives, and pharmacology/pharmacokinetics on a DEEP level. And my take on whether or not he doped...is NEUTRAL. I am including scientific/medical info to consider for laypeople below but all of it leads to — we don’t know. Feel free to ask earnest questions in the comments, but I won't be responding to weirdos or trolls.

I feel that I'm uniquely equipped to speak on this issue and find that the more you know, the more you understand what you don't know.

I am NOT derailing the criticism of the greedy corporations behind this, their lack of transparency/treatment of other players/favoritism/etc, so see below for more on that.

It’s really easy to spiral into theories that confirm our biases either way.

The truth is, “doping” and all of its testing is an incredibly complex process. To me it’s theoretically possible that Jannik doped (and I generally like him) AND theoretically possible that his side of the story is 100% true. Doping may indeed be common, AND the anti-doping regulations are so strict/extensive that it’s hard to live a normal person’s life without accidentally consuming something.

Some points to consider for laypeople:

“Billionths of a gram” is how almost all PEDs / metabolites are measured, in nanograms per deciliter. It’s a common measurement for many tests. It was smart of the PR team to include it in that language as laypeople will read it a certain way, but it’s not meaningful in context. What IS meaningful is that that amount, taken at that time, is not effective to enhance performance. We do not have further information to say if the levels were ever higher, and that’s why he was proven innocent. Whether or not the levels were ever higher is a question mark, and one could postulate that’s likely if they wanted to accuse him, but they were never *documented* to be higher.

For detectable systemic (bloodstream) absorption in the time frame described, the anabolic-androgenic steroid would have had to enter Sinner via cuts, not transdermally, which is why the open skin is mentioned so much.

As many of you have mentioned, it’s definitely icky / not within medical standards to not perform hand hygiene/wear gloves before something like a massage knowing both parties have open cuts. AND, it was a physiotherapist, not a physician, we don’t give massages, we wear gloves for everything and they perhaps don’t. And these physios have close, long term relationships to their athletes unlike a typical healthcare worker with a patient they know for less than a day. Like, it’s possible that some of them almost never wear gloves. [Edit: I removed a tongue in cheek stereotypical comment about Italians being touchy.]

Most people are familiar with topical corticosteroids like hydrocortisone or clobetasol (note very similar spelling to clostebol). Those are corticosteroids and commonly used worldwide for pretty much all skin conditions. Over time, corticosteroids generally lead to catabolism (molecule breakdown). Interestingly, used systemically, they are ALSO banned per doping regulations and only allowed topically. Clostebol in contrast is an anabolic (molecule building) steroid with vastly different effects. Any topical use would likely not be an issue if it had not absorbed through the bloodstream.

This is why I see so much grey zone. If topical corticosteroid use is allowed and it’s known to absorb systemically with high doses over time, why allow it? Corticosteroids are a perfect example of a life saving drug for people with asthma and are indicated for hundreds of other medical issues. Without a deep understanding of how these nuances are handled for athletes with medical conditions, seriously just put the phone down, your opinion doesn’t make sense.

I know nobody wants to think about this, because we all want cold hard scientific facts, but lab error when we’re talking about this minuscule level of a highly uncommonly tested metabolite is real. Even when you test a basic blood level like potassium, it can be off by a pretty significant margin of error depending on numerous location-dependent lab factors, and that test is drawn billions of times a day across the globe and I make medical decisions based on these imperfect data points as do all physicians.

All told, I fully support criticism of a corporation that limits transparency in order to profit. And… that’s every corporation. I’m as leftist as they come and the idealist in me wants a fair world but that’s not the world we are in, unfortunately for many athletes who have been burned and robbed of a living by this same process. And media/public criticism would likely be inflated, like many here mention, if it were not a Western European. And lightyears worse if the player was *gasp* Black.

Please just take a walk, everybody. Or practice your serve toss indoors if it’s nasty outside and try to hit the target on the ground. Tennis is not dead. We don’t have nearly as much information as a select tiny percentage of humans who have the critical info and we never will. Carry on.

Ko hoće pročitati, riječ struke.

[bodi123]

A evo i pravila po kojem je proces ostao anoniman:



Dakle jako slična situacija kao sa Čilićem za kojeg se isto ništa nije znalo 5-6 mjeseci, s tim da je on na kraju izgubio na sudu i onda se ozvaničilo da je suspendovan, a igrao je regularno turnire u toku procesa kao i Sinner.

[bodi123]

Bivši CEO anti-doping programa za ATP i Australiju objasnio čitavu proceduru i sve nejasnoće u detalj:

Given Sinner’s profile in the world of tennis and the allegations of double standards, Ubitennis spoke with somebody with a solid understanding of tennis’ anti-doping process. Richard Ings was head of the ATP’s Anti-Doping Program from 2001 to 2005 before becoming the CEO of the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority from 2005 to 2010.

One of the biggest questions raised is why did it take so long to publically confirm the provisional suspensions?

“I read the decision and the rules were followed to the letter. Sinner was provisionally suspended. His lawyers lodged a same-day appeal for urgent lifting of the provisional suspension based on evidence he had no fault. An expedited hearing in such cases is a feature of the rules.” Ings explains.

“An arbitrator heard the appeal and handed down his decision to lift the suspension. No announcement can be made under the rules now until the matter is heard in full by a tribunal. So he can play.

“The tribunal reviewed the full case of evidence and found Sinner had no fault. So no suspension was imposed. But he automatically loses points and prize money at the first even he tested positive at. That is mandatory even if you are found to have absolutely no fault for the positive so the rules were perfectly followed.”

Ings point out that this matter took place outside of the ATP’s jurisdiction and therefore they had no play in the process.

“This matter has nothing to do with the ATP. The ITIA takes the sample and prosecutes the case. Sports Resolution convenes the training and arbitrators. The ATP is not involved by design. Nor is the ITF.” He said.

“It’s normally quite tough for a player to find the **** (that causes a positive result) but in this case, it was obvious and supportable. He had a compelling case for no fault. But it’s still cost him half a million plus all this negative press and locker room barbs.” Ings added.

There are also concerns about misinformation. For example, on social media, there are claims that Trofodermin isn’t used to treat cuts which which is incorrect.

There are questions about Sinner’s former physio and if any action should be taken against him. If the tennis star had brought Trofodermin and used it himself, he would likely be found at fault and given some form of ban based on previous cases of other athletes doing the same.

“I’d be asking the player what becomes of the trainer. The trainer’s actions cost Sinner over half a million dollars, including lawyers,” Ings commented.

As for the wider picture, he acknowledges lower ranked players on the Tour would face more challenges if they was to be in a similar situation.

“The key observation here is ****. Sinner clearly has the **** to get the best lawyers to draft a same-day request for an expedited hearing. A less well-**** player would struggle to do that.” He concluded.

Sinner has not spoken to reporters about his case so far but has issued a statement. However, he will face questions this weekend at the US Open when he takes part in the pre-tournament media day.